Female Guppies w/Clamped Fins

[rarefish]

Yesterday upon looking at my 20gallon tank I noticed that almost all of my female guppies had clamped fins. I recently introduced 2 male guppies, a white cloud, and a ghost shrimp (all of which I am "babysitting"- the owners had them in a tiny 1 gallon tank and I didn't want them in that small tank for a month- I didn't have another guppy-friendly cycled tank for them to go to...). And yes, I know that white clouds are supposed to be in groups and that I shouldn't introduce new fish without quarantine, but hopefully this will be a one time thing. I already had about 20 female guppies, 1 male guppy, and a lot of fry and planorbid snails in there. And yes, again, I know I am overstocked. Right now I am working on a 28 gallon hex tank to split them up and hopefully a few 10 gallons for the fry. I also plan to move the fish I am looking after into their own tank, but I really want my tanks to cycle properly before I just throw fish in them. Please don't bash me for my known mistakes- I've already bashed myself ... I am working on improvements. I have added salt, MelaFix, and PimaFix. Is there anything else that I should do? I have been keeping guppies for at least 5 years, if not longer, but I will admit that I am not too knowledgeable in the illness area. Thanks ahead!

rarefish

[OrionGirl]

Well, I wouldn't add some many things all at once--that constitutes a pretty rapid change to the water (TDS).

Have you tested ammonia/nitrites? Last water change?

[rarefish]

Sorry it has taken me so long!

Nitrate: above 200
Nitrite: 1.0
Hardness (GH): 300
Alkalinity: 20
pH: 6
Ammonia: 0

I have a problem. A serious problem... Any advice? I have a quarantine tank cycling right now and am about to get two more going. Thanks!

[bencozzy]

50% water change.

[wesleydnunder]

Originally Posted by bencozzy

50% water change.

Agree...followed by another, then another until you get the nitrate down to 20 to 40 ppm and nitrite to .1 or zero, whichever is achievable with water changes. Seems like your tank is in the last part of a cycle. Keep testing and doing water changes until nitrite stops showing up. Your bioload is probably too heavy for the filter, but you're getting more tanks going, so you can ease the load on this tank as soon as the others cycle. You'll probably have to keep the water quality up with water changes until you move some fish out. Once you get some of the load off this tank's filtration system, you'll probably be able to maintain adequate water quality with weekly partials. I'd keep testing and keep a log of test results to track the cycle.

Mark

[rarefish]

50% water change done! I'll check the stats again in the morning. I have to finish sealing the 28 gallon hex and then I can get it running. Thanks!

[OrionGirl]

Do a series of water changes. Test immediately after, and then do another change if the levels haven't dropped.

How often do you normally do water changes?

[rarefish]

Things have taken a turn for the worse- one is dead and their fins are clamped even "harder." Around their gills it is "reddish" to pink, and on some their coloring is off- in a way, "yellow." I normally do water changes every 1.5 to 2 weeks. I am starting to believe that along with the water problems they have some kind of illness. I don't know what to do and am at a loss- I blame myself for putting the "visiting" fish in with them, as this is when most of the problems started.

[OrionGirl]

The water quality issues CAUSE other problems. What are the water parameters now? Did you do more water changes, or just the initial 50%?

[wesleydnunder]

Originally Posted by rarefish

Things have taken a turn for the worse- one is dead and their fins are clamped even "harder." Around their gills it is "reddish" to pink, and on some their coloring is off- in a way, "yellow." I normally do water changes every 1.5 to 2 weeks. I am starting to believe that along with the water problems they have some kind of illness. I don't know what to do and am at a loss- I blame myself for putting the "visiting" fish in with them, as this is when most of the problems started.

Nitrite poisoning will inhibit the blood's ability to absorb oxygen. One 50% water change will only cut the nitrite in half. That's why we suggested successive water changes to get the nitrite level way down. My suggestion is to keep doing the water changes and keep testing after each one. I've read that the gills will redden as they become super-saturated with blood in the body's attempt to get oxygen to itself. The fish are weakened, possibly beyond recovery, but you may still be able to save them. I've also read that adding salt to the water will offset the effcts of nitrite poisoning somewhat, but at this point I think getting the nitrite out with water changes is your best bet.

Mark

[rarefish]

Another water change has been done, and the Nitrate is down to 40 and the Nitrite is at 0. The pH is about 6.8 now, and the water is softer. I'm doing daily water changes and am thinking about doing them twice daily until I get this under control- what do you think? I'm using Amquel+ to condition the water, and am almost out, and will be going to get more this afternoon. Is there anything else I need to get? Two more are dead, but the others are looking a little better. Thanks again-

rarefish

[OrionGirl]

Keep doing them until the level is down! Do NOT wait a day in between, just do a 50% change, test, do another change, test, etc. Truth--you CAN NOT do too many water changes in a day! Make sure the water going in matches the temp, but otherwise--keep doing changes until the nitrites are down.

[rarefish]

Update: I had to leave for a few days and left the tank in the care of a family member. Despite doing everything that she was supposed to do, I now only have 3 female guppies left. The ghost shrimp, white cloud, male guppies, and fry seem to be doing well. I did an extensive water change today and some heavy-duty tank cleaning. Water stats are quite good, but to be safe I am slowly acclimating the fish (and shrimp) back in, mainly as I am wary of pH shock, etc. Wish me luck! I'm hoping that I can keep all the rest of them alive! It's sad because I've had this tank going for years, and these female guppies were 2nd and third generations that I had bred and raised.

[ChilDawg]

What does it mean that the stats are "quite good"?

[Roan]

Originally Posted by rarefish

Nitrate: above 200
Nitrite: 1.0
Hardness (GH): 300
Alkalinity: 20
pH: 6
Ammonia: 0

I know he hasn't bothered to post his water change routine at all, but am I the only one who sees these numbers as an OTS crash?

Hello????

Roan

[Daveedka]

I know he hasn't bothered to post his water change routine at all, but am I the only one who sees these numbers as an OTS crash?

Hello????

No but at this point, OTS recovery falls under the categoryu of shoulda/coulda.

IT would be nice to know what the routine is in order to help prevent future crashes of this type.

Dave

[Roan]

Originally Posted by Daveedka

No but at this point, OTS recovery falls under the categoryu of shoulda/coulda.

Nod, nod. I just get the heebie jeebies that no one said anything.

IT would be nice to know what the routine is in order to help prevent future crashes of this type.

You and me both, Dave.

Roan

[rarefish]

rarefish has XX chromosomes. Stats:

Nitrate: 10
Nitrite: 0
Hardness (GH): 15
Alkalinity: 180
pH: 7.8
Ammonia: 0

I know it's not perfect, but it's much better than it was.
Routine: every 1.5-2 weeks I clean the gravel and do a 25% water change. I add either Amquel+ or StressCoat. The power filter has a Lustar Filter-Max III Prefilter (sponge) on it that has been on it for about 18months, so I don't use carbon. Can someone enlighten me as to what "OTS" is? I don't think that I've ever heard of it...

[sarcare]

old tank syndrome--when your tank has been established for a while and the tank care has possibly slipped a bit (most people recommend and do 50% water changes weekly) and nitrates have built up to toxic amounts. The serious problem lies that at this point fish are used to this cruddy water and if you take out 50 ot 75% to get rid of nitrates then they will go into shock and die. So most people recomend for OTS small daily 10% water changes until all the water is changed out, and then resuming a course of 50% weekly water changes.

[rarefish]

Thanks for the info- so weekly 50% water changes should prevent this from happening again? If so, It'll be much easier than dealing with OTS! I lost one more female last night, but the others are doing much better except for one thing: popeye. Can OTS weaken fish to the point that they are easily vulnerable to disease? What should I do to medicate? I am thinking about ordering some Maracyn Plus...