Back and Feeling Salty

[tomm10]

Well, some of you old ACers might remember me but I may have been gone long enough for even the old crowd to remember!

Anyway, I have a 29 gallon FW setup with live plants that I've had for quite some time. The inhabitants are currently just a few neons and some shrimp. I'm giving some serious thought to relegating them to an old 10g so I can turn the 29g into a FOWLR tank.

That's where you wise sages come in! This will be my first foray into the world of salt and I want to start off with as little investment in equipment as possible. I have a Fluval 304 that I would like to utilize for extra filtration/water movement but I hear that can be a little tricky as they can be nitrate traps. How serious an issue is this? My hope would be to get away with it for a while and then maybe switch to a skimmer after a while (months not years). Is that safe enough?

I have a good LFS nearby with live rock and I plan to buy a powerhead for some water movement. What about RO water? My tap water is actually decent and I wonder if I can get away with that? RO systems are a bigger investment than I'm willing to make right away. Like the skimmer, I'd be willing to go there in a while but not right now.

So what say you masters of salinity? Can I get away with just buying a powerhead right now and removing the biofilters from my cannister?

[DaisyTattoo]

I do not know squat about sw setups but I will welcome you to AB! Welcome Someone will surely be around soon to answer your questions!

[jojo22]

^^^HEHE thats me!!!^^^

Well to start off since I don't know you, HI!

Your tap water will not work, you should at least (and this is bare bones minimum) buy the $.25 a gallon water from a machine or water company. For a FOWLR you can get away with no skimmer in a 29 but be ready to do frequent and large water changes (especially if you have messy fish like puffers or triggers). A powerhead is a good thing and even if your not doing a reef look into making that HOB filter into a refugium, it will help get rid of excess nutrients and can be done quite cheap (in some cases less than $20).

[OrionGirl]

I remember you. Welcome!

You can run the filter, just remove the media so the solid wastes don't get trapped--or put on a good pre-filter so the wastes are trapped where critters can easily get to them and have biological media in the filter.

Witha small tank, you'll want to avoid triggers--none stay small enough. There are a few puffers that would be an option, but I would stay away from them until you know if you want to go reef, since the tobies aren't reef safe.

[tomm10]

Hey, OG! Good to talk to you again

My son is real big on the Nemo thing and since I hear they're fairly hardy, I think we'll probably go for a pair of clowns. 29 isn't so big and I know enough to know that clowns can be territorial so I doubt we'll add too much else. Perhaps some inverts at some point.

So, I'll go with a cannister sans media and I'll get power head. I have two concerns now.

First, liverock. At $10-15 or more a pound I'm looking at $300-650 to buy as much as I'm told you need for a 29g. That's soooo not going to happen. If I buy base rock will the live rock help to populate it? Would I be able to stock lightly until the base rock becomes live rock? That's how my freshwater brain works anyway.

Second is the RO water. Even a cheapy RO unit is $100. Will a tapwater filter from Fosters and Smith work until I'm at a point where I even know what kind of RO unit I'd want? Carting gallons of water between the LFS and home isn't an option but I could deal with a $40-50 filter.

Thanks for the help folks!

[OrionGirl]

Better yet, put in the base rock, cycle fishess, when the setup stabilizes, do a water change, then buy the live rock. The bacteria will populate the tank, and then the encrusting algaes and worms and critter will migrate onto the base rock. The tank will be able to support a full stock once cycled, it just won't look as finished.

For stocking--A pair of oscellaris or percula clowns will be fine. Some mushrooms (lower light needing), cleaner or blood shrimp, and a variety of snails, should be good to go.

Depends on what is in your water. Yes, reef tanks can be maintained on filtered tap, it just depends on what is in your water, so check with your water utility and see what all you have to deal with. If copper levels are present--you won't want to use it. Bummer, I know.

[tomm10]

Rocking on with the info as usual, OG!

Since I'm not in a terrible rush, I like the idea of a fishless cycle with base rock. I'm also loving the stock ideas! How many lbs of actual liverock would you recommend?

I'll double check my water bill statement but I've got inverts living in the fresh water so I doubt there's any copper to speak of in the water.

[OrionGirl]

You want about 30-40 pounds of rock in total, so I'd go with at least 10-15 pounds of pretty stuff. I'd probably try to get several smaller chunks, so you can spread it around the tank.

[jojo22]

I must advise against base rock. This rock has no life at all and even when mixed with LR at a 50/50 ratio it will take 12-14 months for it to become LR. It may get coraline and pods before that but the life deep within the rock will not be equivelent to true LR for that time meaning you will only have a few lbs of LR and a bunch of dead rock. One way to save a few bucks would be to buy uncured LR and allow it to cure while your tank cycles, the die off from the rock will be more than enough to cycle your tank.

Here is a link to an article I wrote for another site just for people who are setting up their first SW tank.
The saltwater switch!!! For people seting up their first saltwater tank. - Captive Reefing - Coral Reef Forums

I must also disagree with OG on the water issue there are many more issues with tap water than copper. The first ones that come to mind are phosphates, trites, trates, hight TDS levels and that is just a few. You may get away with this in a FOWLR system but IMO it would be very irresponsible to do so in a reef.

[DaisyTattoo]

I asked my lfs what they use. They use tap for all their tanks and they have some spectacular reefs going on. I think it really depends on your tap water.

[jojo22]

Well we all know how much to trust the advice from our LFS don't we??? Please speak with anyone who has verifiable knowledge (Calfo, Fenner, any big name) on the topic and they will tell you that using tap on a reef is the equivelent of of having one to many drinks and playing Russian roulette in a back alley on a Mexican vacation.

[tomm10]

jojo, I appreciate your advice. I would just point out that I am only planning on this tank being a FOWLR tank. I have no plans for a reef tank. My tap water is pretty good though I'm sure RO would be much better.

My real issue is that this is my first attempt at SW. I have not desire to spend $1000 to set up my first tank. I'm trying to start off with as much of the existing equipment I have as possible knowing that down the road, I may be in for a bigger tank and all the gear that goes along with it.

[DaisyTattoo]

Originally Posted by jojo22

Well we all know how much to trust the advice from our LFS don't we??? Please speak with anyone who has verifiable knowledge (Calfo, Fenner, any big name) on the topic and they will tell you that using tap on a reef is the equivelent of of having one to many drinks and playing Russian roulette in a back alley on a Mexican vacation.

Excuse me, but I don't know about your lfs, just as you don't know about mine. I happen to have a great resource here and they have very knowledgeable staff. Their use of tap has not had any ill effects to the livestock they keep and they have some great livestock. So perhaps you should think before you respond so harshly when you don't agree with something. I wasn't saying that all tap is okay, but in some instances it will work. Just depends on the tap.

[OrionGirl]

Please provide proof. Sure, there are a lot of big names that will say you can't run a tank anyway but their way--but the number of stunning tanks setup to the contrary should be more than enough evidence that it just ain't so.

Is there more the live rock than the surface bacteria? Sure. But--the bacteria will be covering the outside within the first 4-6 weeks. The nitrification process develops during the cycle. The speculation about what else is in the interior of the rock (alga) that benefits an aquarium is just that--speculation. A tank can be made stable using mostly base rock.

[jojo22]

http://www.mwra.state.ma.us/monthly/...a/092007wq.pdf

Please note the EXTREAMLY high pH for the water in central mass. Please also see the TDS count. Those are the two that really stuck out but not many of the numbers in these tests are good for a SW system. If the original poster would like to state what town they live in I would be more than happy to make sure this test is for their direct area but this is what I found with their location under their avitar.

[jojo22]

Originally Posted by OrionGirl

Please provide proof. Sure, there are a lot of big names that will say you can't run a tank anyway but their way--but the number of stunning tanks setup to the contrary should be more than enough evidence that it just ain't so.

Is there more the live rock than the surface bacteria? Sure. But--the bacteria will be covering the outside within the first 4-6 weeks. The nitrification process develops during the cycle. The speculation about what else is in the interior of the rock (alga) that benefits an aquarium is just that--speculation. A tank can be made stable using mostly base rock.

Please see proof in post above.

You are totally correct in saying that the nitrifiying bacteria will spread in 4-6 weeks. However that could be done with a simple floss filter. LR is called such for many more reasons than nitrifying bacteria. Denitrifying bacteria being the other big one. This is why HOB filters, sponge filters, wet/dry filters, and bio balls are all referred to as "nitrate factories" and are not generally used by experienced marine aquarists. LR that has not yet gathered the denitrifying bacteria and other life that allow it to filter properly is noting more than a hard sponge untill this life forms.

[bencozzy]

howdy!!

saltwater is fun to do dont over complicate things.

for rock id get dry reef rock or lace rock build a good base/scape. then start adding super nice pieces of live rock as you find them. shouldnt take to long for the coralline algea(just have to keep cal/alk up and po4 down) to start spreading will take a while for denitrification to get into full swing but hey its a FOWLR so dont sweat it.

id pull all the mechanical and bio filtration from the fluval and use it for water flow and chemical media(purigen and rowaphos work really good together). check it for mulm build up every so often to help keep nitrates down.

id use tap my self, just skip the shrimps and corals.

[tomm10]

Maybe this argument has spilled outside of the boundries of my question now. I'm not questioning that RO water would be best. I simply asked if it would be possible to sustain an FOWLR with tap water or filtered tap water.

As for LR, I'm okay with low bioloads in the tank and frequent water changes for a while if it means saving several hundred dollars on LR. I can always add more LR piece by piece as time goes by too, right?

Jojo, for the record, I'm not on MWRA water. We get ours from Aquarion. Their 2006 report is here.

http://www.aquarion.com/pdf/Oxford2006.pdf

I didn't see anything terribly alarming but perhaps I'm consuming poison after all. Again, the big question is not whether this water is great but whether or not I can get away with filtering it. My other option is to get the Kent Bare Bones RO system but even that is twice the price of the filter and will, of course, require that I set up a station for the RO to run.

[jojo22]

Some of the levels on that link a 3 years old. Plus there are a lot of elements not shown. Based on that link I would not use that water in any marine tank with inverts or LR. The copper level should be 0 or you are taking risks. But that is just my view from what I have learned, others here obviously disagree with me (which is great as if we all agreed this would be a really boring place). I have seen what copper levels can do (I used walmarts "RO" water) and it killed even the micro stars in the LR (they came floating out). So that is my opinion.

Here is a link to a good yet inexpencive RO unit that may be an option for you.
eBay Store - reverse osmosis: Water Purification Systems, aquarium, Replacement Filters
Look on the second page towards the middle.

[tomm10]

You know, i'd forgotten.

My freshwater tank has been settled and doing well for years so I forgot how this happens. I try to do it cheap but keep finding I can't so I buy in a little more!

Since I have plenty of other opportunities to screw this tank up, I think I'll go ahead at least fill it with RO water. In the end the less expensive RO units aren't so bad and I only have a 29g tank so I don't need a crazy high rate.

Thanks for all your help! I believe I'll begin the process this weekend by transfering the FW guys into the 10g and cleaning the 29g!