New tank.. New keeper

[canardman]

I have my eye on a 54g corner tank at the LFS. I really love my freshwater tank and would like to try a SW tank. I have been advised to stay away from the "instant ocean" tanks. Would like to see a thread about the differences between keeping a FW and SW tank. Why is lighting choice important, what is a protein skimmer, what filter differences do I need to know about? I would like to be well informed about keeping a SW tank, seems I would enjoy it more if I knew how to set it up correctly.

Thanks for any help.

[marie]

Thanks for asking. I have been wondering this myself. I am right about where you are and can't wait for the replies. Sorry I can't provide any information for you though.

[OrionGirl]

Originally Posted by canardman

I have my eye on a 54g corner tank at the LFS.

That's an okay size, but you're going to want to decide what you want to keep before purchasing. With SW, bigger really is better simpy because a big tank, once stable, is easier to keep in balance. Also, depending on what you want, size is a big concern.

Some basics...

In SW, the same basics apply--you need to maintain the bacteria the process the waste produced by the organisms in the tank. It's a different type of bacteria than live in our FW tanks, though. Also, in SW we can provide for bacteria to breakdown the nitrAtes as well as the nitrItes. This doesn't mean you don't have to do water changes, though! Calcium levels and pH are important in SW, as are a few other parameters that may need to be monitored, depending on what kind of setup you choose.

Also like FW, there are different types of tanks. Fish only (FO) are tanks that have just fish. The filtration is primarily through power filters, very much like an unplanted FW setup, with minimal areas available for nitrate reduction. There are some fish that do best in a tank like this, but IMO, it's a poor choice.

Adding live rock to a FO makes it a FOWLR (fish only with live rock). Live rock is porous rock that a) hosts all the types of bacteria the tanks needs b) introduces a slew of beneficial organisms (though LR isn't the only way to get them) and c) provides habitat for the animals within. Most good LFS will carry live rock, and there are a variety of kinds. The first distinguishing mark is type. Base rock will be plain, maybe some coralline algae, but very few critters obviously present. It's suitable for many applications, and can be used for a lot of the filtration. Next up is decorator rock. It has more 'critters' and stuff attached, but otherwise serves the same function. Finally, you have show rock, which usually has lots of critters, like sponges, coralline algae, micro algaes, polyps, etc. Shrimp, crabs, and snails are all good candidates for a FOWLR, if the fish stock permit them.

A reef is sort of a culmination of the above with the addition of corals and other reef animals--shrimps, crabs, snails, and fish that won't eat the corals etc.

The fish that are appropriate for each will vary some as well. Some fish will eat other, smaller fish. Some fish will bug and pester ANYTHING else that's in with them. Some fish will eat crabs and shrimp, while others will eat corals. It's all a matter of what fish you want, which setup will work best. I'm partial to tanks with LR, simply because it does so much of the filtration, and introduces microfauna that is beneficial in terms of cleaning up waste.

Why is lighting choice important....

Lighting is important because corals and algaes require light to survive. If you don't want corals, any lighting that please you will suffice. Otherwise, you need to consider what corals you want to keep, the size and dimensions of the tank, etc. There are lots of choices, so there's not really one 'best' setup for light.

what is a protein skimmer...

A protein skimmer is a mechanical filter that forces tiny bubbles into a column. The dissolved proteins in the water 'stick' to the bubbles, which then are pushed up the column and into a collection cup for easy removal. It helps keep the water cleaner, and is a good addition to most setups.

what filter differences do I need to know about?

If you go with LR, a power filter is totally optional. I'm not in favor of them, preferring to rely on LR and a sand bed to host all the bacteria, with critters providing mechanical cleanup and water changes to keep everything stable. Sumps are great, because you can stash extra rock in them as well as hiding all the equipment.

I would like to be well informed about keeping a SW tank, seems I would enjoy it more if I knew how to set it up correctly.

Thanks for any help.

Patience is not a virtue with SW, it's a requirement! Very, very few good things happen fast, so taking your time to decide what you want will go far in increasing your odds for success.

[joephys]

OG about summed it up pretty well. All I can really add with out writing a book on a lot of specifics, is that I personally don't use a filter or skimmer. I like not having a filter, but I really wish I had a skimmer.

Also look through the articles section. There are good articles written about contrasting salt water and fresh water methods, marine lighting, and other topics.

[Slick Fork]

I'll echo the part about deciding what you want to keep and THEN creating an environment suitable for it, rather than creating the environment and trying to "fit" creatures into it.

Go through the various tank-build threads in the Marine section here, I try to be honest and list off the bone-headed things I've done as well as the really smart stuff so people can learn from my mistakes as well as my (far fewer) strokes of genius! There are some other really good threads here as well and some great tanks to boot.

As far as actual differences, I find SW way more immersive and Initially a bit more work. SW is less forgiving, especially in smaller tanks but it's not nearly as tough as I was always told it was. I spend on average about 15 minutes a day actually accomplishing things with my tank and another undisclosed amount of time puttering around and scheming about new "make things easy" devices! Of course, the extra work just makes it that much more rewarding.

[Emg]

I havn't found much of a difference in keeping my reef as in taking care of my fw planted community. In fact, I think the reef is easier...and my fw planted tank is a low light tank, so fairly simple as far as planted tanks go.

You'll need to mix the sw ahead of time before you do a water change, not a biggie...I use a 10gallon tank for that. It has a heater in it and a motor from one of my intank filters to keep the water moving around.

Another difference that I don't think was mentioned yet....is that most folks use RO/DI water in their marine tanks. TDS (total dissolved solids) is another parameter that is more important in sw tanks....and keeping that number down as much as possible is pretty important. There are water systems that you can purchase and hook up to your sink. It takes awhile to make up a batch of water so you'll want to have someplace to store it as it's made. I don't use RO/DI myself(....I use my tap water.....sshhh!) Tap/well water is often not a good idea because there's usually alot of stuff in tap/well that you don't want in your marine system. Mine just happens to be very soft water (low end TDS) and settles into just the right PH level for my tank....a huge blessing ! Someday it would be nice if I could get an RO/DI system to use for top off if nothing else.....I'm sure at some point using my tap will eventually catch up....but...maybe not ! oO(pipe dream)


Have fun looking into all of this Canard ! I have found a reef to be far more interesting all around than any of my fw tanks...although my 29 planted community is still a favorite...

[joephys]

Sorry Emg, I don't want to nit pick and I know what you meant, I just don't want someone to get confused about TDS and a salt water tank.

You definitely don't want your SW to be as low in TDS as possible, because, well, its salt water, it has a lot of dissolved solids. You want the initial mix water to be as low as possible in dissolved solids from the tap because there are potential solids that you don't want in your aquarium. These include silicates, phosphates, nitrate, and some other things. That is why you would want to use RO/DI, because those can cause huge headaches in a reef aquarium.

I have found SW maintenance much easier. It takes a lot less time to do a 20% water change compared to a 50% water change, and I never have to clean the sand. The biggest factor is the cost. You could easily spend 200 bucks on a good skimmer for a 50 gallon tank, and another 400 on lighting. Granted it doesn't require costs like that, its just really easy to spend that much. I have read about people with large 150+ gallon reef tanks spending over 10 grand on them.

[Emg]

Thanks for the clarification Joe.....don't mind at all and go ahead and nit pic whenever you need to

You're right...I was thinking of the intitial/top off water when I typed that...should have said that. I think the biggest issue you can run into by not using the RO/DI is major algae outbreaks. But I'm sure there are others...


You can spend alot on a sw system....but, you don't have to. A fish only system would be the cheapest, but not the best. The next up would be the FOWLR. Live Rock can be pricey but if you find a community of marine enthusiasts in your area and better yet....a reef club of some type.......you can often find pretty good deals as folks swap and trade items all the time in such groups. I've seen it go for as little as $3 a lb from one hobbiest to another........I hit the jackpot when a fella GAVE me about 30-40lbs of great live rock, but I guess that doesn't happen too often.

If you decide you want to give a reef a try......the corals themselves can be costly, but again...if you're diligent you can find people local or online who will trade items for coral. As far as lighting a reef goes.....most of the hard corals and clams need mega lighting to keep them healthy, which can get very pricey.......but there are plenty of the soft corals that can do well enough on compact flourescent lighting if your tank isn't too deep. They aren't as colorful usually....but add nice texture,movement and interest to the tank.

[joephys]

Copper is another potential problem with not using RO/DI. Trace amounts can prove to be deadly to inverts.

[Roan]

Why such small water changes in a SW tank? Don't SW creatures et al generate as much bioload as in FW? Some people do 10% per month and I just can't get my brain around that.

Something I've always wondered about.

Roan

[joephys]

Two reasons I can think of off hand, one is with live rock and live sand, you get bacteria that will break down nitrates into nitrogen gas. There are also a lot more organisms that will eat waste products, effectively removing a lot of organics from the water before they have a chance to get there. I read once that the average fish poo goes through seven stomachs before it is finally broken down completely by bacteria. I have no idea how accurate that is however. Protein skimmers also remove a lot of the organics directly from the water.

The second is because most reef creatures are way more sensitive to environmental changes. The larger the water change, the greater the impact of things like slight differences in salinity or temperature.

[canardman]

Keep it coming... I'm taking notes. What about testing? I'll be testing for nitrite, nitrate, and ammonia... what else?

[joephys]

It depends on what you want to keep.

Other than the tests you mentioned, pH, calcium, phosphate and carbonate hardness are the most important.

pH should be ~8.2,
calcium between 300-400ppm, closer to 400 in a reef tank.
phosphate 0ppm
carbonate hardness ~10 dKH

[Roan]

Originally Posted by joephys

Two reasons I can think of off hand, one is with live rock and live sand, you get bacteria that will break down nitrates into nitrogen gas. There are also a lot more organisms that will eat waste products, effectively removing a lot of organics from the water before they have a chance to get there. I read once that the average fish poo goes through seven stomachs before it is finally broken down completely by bacteria. I have no idea how accurate that is however. Protein skimmers also remove a lot of the organics directly from the water.

The second is because most reef creatures are way more sensitive to environmental changes. The larger the water change, the greater the impact of things like slight differences in salinity or temperature.

Yes, but what about DOC? It's in there, somewhere and it just doesn't disappear, right? I mean, everything produces waste of some type, so how is it processed if not by removal via water changes?

Roan, who wants to set up a salty at some point

[joephys]

True everything does produce waste, but a lot of that waste gets broken down in nitrogen, oxygen and carbon dioxide gases easier than in a freshwater aquarium. A good protein skimmers also removes a lot of DOC's.

I am not saying that water changes aren't needed, just that smaller ones are the norm. I personally would do more than 10% a month, more like 10% a week, or 20% every two weeks.

[canardman]

I'll echo the part about deciding what you want to keep and THEN creating an environment suitable for it

Well... Just so happens I know exactly what I want.

I would like my tank in the corner. It will have a pile of rock in the rear of the tank, spotted with anemone. I want one of those little red and white shrimp (I will call him Jacques) scampering along the white sand in the bottom. Also, I would like 2 clowns (one will be Marlin, the other of course would be Nemo), and a few brightly colored Gobies. Also a starfish would be cool. and if compatible, maybe a blue tang. It shall be named Dori

[Emg]

Lol.....atta boy Canard !


I'm not sure a blue tang would be appropriate in a 54gallon tank...I believe they need a bit more room than that....but I could be wrong.

Anemones can be pretty difficult to care for, they tend to be fussy and like a lot of light. I'd wait on that until you get your feet wet in the marine side of the room before you purchase one of those. I believe the bubble tip anemones are one of the easier to keep. However, there are those Flower/Tulip/Beadlet anenomes which most folks consider pests...but, they are very pretty...green with pink tips.

I have an idea for you.....you like gobies...how about a goby/pistol shrimp pair...better yet, a mated pair of shrimp gobies With shrimp ?? There are a variety of little shrimp gobies to choose from...colorful too!

I really enjoy the watchman goby that I have. He comes right up to the front of the tank when he sees me. Obviously I've been recognized as the designated chow runner.

Anyway, nows a good time to dream about what you'd like in there....it's fun....even better when you get to the place where you can actually purchase your stock......after doing your research of course

Here's a few helpful sites you can check out if you'd like.....

Reef Aquarium Water Parameters by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com
Marc's Hidden Treasure

[OrionGirl]

In answer to Roan's question...As with FW, there really isn't a hard and fast rule regarding water changes. I do weekly changes on all my tanks, about 20%, with one larger one every few months.

A blue tang is really not a great choice for a 54--they need lots of swimming room, and get very large. So, something that's at least 6 foot in length is a better home for a tang.

Do a lot of research on anenomes. They aren't impossible to keep, but they are a challenge, and when you consider that they're darn near eternal in the wild, it's a shame to pull them from the ocean and have them die, so look specifically for those that readily reproduce in captivity. You will need lots of light.

[joephys]

Anemones aren't best suited for beginners, and corner tanks are hard to light because of their shape, and you probably won't be able to spot the tank with anemones. Most of them get fairly big.

The red and white shrimp you are referring too is a coral banded shrimp. Oh, and as a note, the fish in the aquarium in finding nemo aren't all compatible. blue tangs need a lot of room, they get about a foot long.

[Roan]

Originally Posted by OrionGirl

In answer to Roan's question...As with FW, there really isn't a hard and fast rule regarding water changes. I do weekly changes on all my tanks, about 20%, with one larger one every few months.

Thanks, OG.

A blue tang is really not a great choice for a 54--they need lots of swimming room, and get very large. So, something that's at least 6 foot in length is a better home for a tang.

I believe blues get to 16" in size and they either can or will eat corals.

Do a lot of research on anenomes. They aren't impossible to keep, but they are a challenge, and when you consider that they're darn near eternal in the wild, it's a shame to pull them from the ocean and have them die, so look specifically for those that readily reproduce in captivity. You will need lots of light.

Nod, alot of the rose bubble-tips are cultured and not wild caught. They, the roses, don't seem to like bright light either. Ours prefers to stay out of the light.

Once our young onyx clowns discovered and coveted the anemone, which took about two weeks, the female turned into a nasty-butt. VERY protective of anemone and will go after anyone who puts fingers into the tank. She can really bite, too

A fairy or a flasher wrasse, the "safe" type, are a gorgeous addition and center-piece fish. They get from 3" to 5", depending on the species.

Roan