Using cycled freshwater pieces to cycle SW?

[J2FcM]

I know with my freshwater tanks, I usually will plop in some filter media, a bio wheel and some decor from an established tank and voila! It really speeds up cycling times on the new tank.

Can I do this to a new salt water tank? (i mean borrow FW decor\filter media,etc... to cycle the FW tank, then return it to the original FW tank)
Or am I regulated to live rock and live substrate to cylce the SW tank?

any other things to look out for? A copper testing kit mayhaps?

[joephys]

Won't work. FW and SW have two different types of bacteria.

You don't have to use live rock however, you can cycle a SW tank with time and patience just like a FW tank. Another option, just by a few small pieces of live rock and that will help seed the tank.

[J2FcM]

thankyou for confirming that. I couldn't get my exact question to come up answered on google.

I'd prolly get a few pieces of live rock then and toss in the bag of live substrate I have.

Water changes just slow the process too right? So don't do them? (while cycling)

[Sylvia]

Sorry, but is live rock what makes the saltwater tank get all sorts of colored blotches? Is that saltwater algae or something?

[J2FcM]

color blotches?

is there a pic. for reference?

[Lobo.]

I think that you are referring to coralline algae

it takes a while to grow into a tank, its pretty and is easy to manage compared to freshwater algae. its a good indication of a fairly established tank

[RTR]

Water changes do not slow any cycle process unless they are 100%. The nitification bacteria, FW or SW, saturate for ammonia or nitrite below hobby test kit detection levels. Do not be confused by what the kits call "0" readings. "Zero" in test-kit-speak means "not detectable by this test". It definitely does not mean none of the material is present in the water tested, only that the kit cannot detect it below that level.

The changeover from one set of bacterial species to the other with increasing or decreasing salts content is somewhere around in the range of specific gravity 1.008-1.012.

[joephys]

The colored blotches are coralline algae. It generally comes in live rock but you can get it from other places, like snail shells. Its good algae (except when its on the front glass )

[Emg]

J2, you can buy cured LR and also LR that is not cured. "Dead" live rock is cheaper, but you have to go through a smelly curing process and it will take longer for your tank to cycle.....unless it's soo dead that there's no life left in it whatsoever. Many folks use this type of rock as baserock...setting it underneath the cured LR to build up their reefs. It saves a bit on the cost as well.

For a quicker cycle you'd want to pick up some that is already cured. You will want to let the cured rock set in your tank long enough to make sure that there's nothing still decomposing in it by testing for ammonia....before you add any fish. Sometimes "cured" LR isn't always completely cured....or some of the critters in the rock may die in transport...especially if you buy it online and it takes a few days to get to you.

I highly recomend LR in a saltwater tank. Even if you don't want to do coral, LR is a natural filter and can do nothing but help.

[J2FcM]

If I get uncured live rock maybe I'll be lucky enough to find a mantis shrimp and save on rock costs and stomatopod costs!

And also, then one could hypothetically populate an uncycled SW tank, but with the water changes required, and maintaining salinity it becomes much more of a logistical, time consuming, and money consuming project?

[Sylvia]

Thanks for answering my "unrelated" question!

[joephys]

Originally Posted by J2FcM

...
And also, then one could hypothetically populate an uncycled SW tank, but with the water changes required, and maintaining salinity it becomes much more of a logistical, time consuming, and money consuming project?

Yes. 100% water changes every day would go through a LOT of salt. With the smaller water changes, if you salinity is slightly off from the tank, its not going to have much of an effect. If it is off with a huge water change, it can have a drastic effect on the tank.

[Fractured]

Originally Posted by J2FcM

thankyou for confirming that. I couldn't get my exact question to come up answered on google.

I'd prolly get a few pieces of live rock then and toss in the bag of live substrate I have.

Water changes just slow the process too right? So don't do them? (while cycling)

The normal steps for salt water setup go for marine fish or reef tank setup about the same. Fish tank is forgiving ..coral tank not so..very sensitive water parameters.

Reef Frontiers I suggest this site because it has a plethora of salt water tank information ...

Personally:

Put the water in using RO/DI water mix your salt or buy it made for you from a store that does salt water. Either way and always top off with RO/DI water ...

There is still debate on the need of live rock but most will say YES you need cured live rock. And roughly 1 lb per gallon but you can stray from it...55 gallon having 40 lbs vs 55 is still ok.

Deep sand beds I dont suggest unless you go over 55 gallon...just comes with problems... 1 inch layer is good... buying some live sand with plain sand mixing it to seed it with bacteria is fast way to cycle.

Lighting: 3-5 watts per gallon ...keep lights 9" from water if you go metal hallide (or boil your fish and cook the corals ). But lighting very important.

Filtration: Canister and most important Protein skimmers. Good affordable brand. Coral Life Venturi Skimmers.. AKA super skimmer. Add this after you stock the tank.

Water flow: I suggest having a lot of flow also. Korola power heads level 3 and 4s having 2 or 3 of them would be good. You do not want dead flow areas in the tank.

After tanks up and going salinity is in check..sand and rocks are in...

Durring the cycling....you can put lights on a short timer...3-4 hours a day... put in some flake to start the process...

I would not do a water change for one month and dont stock your tank just yet... you will go through algae blooms...diatoms (brown algae) will form and give you a heads up all is going well...

After the month... stock it with hardy fish ..just one for the first 2 weeks minimal (based on my experience). Damsel is a good cheap one to start with.

Later add cleaning crews: turbo snails, asithiris snails, nesarious snails (Spelling is very poor but close enough).

**Admin if my link is against a forum rule go ahead strike it out**

I am trying to keep this short..but in reality Salt water tanks are a challenge and worth it. I can write a whole lot more but I will spare you all a wall of text any bigger than this.

Disclaimer: i have broken my own rules before by stocking early...within 1 week on a 30 gallon bio cube...nothing died...but I was taking a big risk.

Water chemistry ...learn it...learn it well. Very important... And having a Master Reef Test kit plus a PH tester that goes outside normal ranges is best..

Do read the information on the site listed on Water chemistry, protein skimmers, and Lighting.

[Fractured]

Originally Posted by J2FcM

I know with my freshwater tanks, I usually will plop in some filter media, a bio wheel and some decor from an established tank and voila! It really speeds up cycling times on the new tank.

Can I do this to a new salt water tank? (i mean borrow FW decor\filter media,etc... to cycle the FW tank, then return it to the original FW tank)
Or am I regulated to live rock and live substrate to cylce the SW tank?

any other things to look out for? A copper testing kit mayhaps?

Copper is bad for reef tanks. It will cause death and tank crashing. You wouldn't need copper testing...there should be nothing in the tank that puts it in the water.

You could use all the things from another tank...but not the water. Fresh water has way more forgiving room in chemistry. You watch for Ph amonia and Nitrate levels on both types of water sure...but the chemistry of salt water is sensitive.

You also watch for other things like Calcium , Alkalinity, Salt levels, and Phosphates.

Fresh water from an established tank being converted to Salt water will only be problematic ...

The reason marine tank users have to use RO/DI water is having the Oppm on phosphates,nitrates,nitrites ....you dont want to add to it...

Because we have UV lighting...we dont want to encourage algae of the bad kind... which leads to high Dissolved Organic Compounds or DOC for short.

Just all bad things.

I listed above this post the basics of marine tank start up..there is more to it.

Basically there is no speedy way to cycle saltwater...nothing significant. Using live sand. Cured Live rock. And Patience is key.

[joephys]

I don't like canister filters, or any other kind of mechanical filtration on a SW tank. I just see it as a nitrate factory. Clean up crew and filter feeders should take care of it.

I would very much disagree about not doing a water change for a month. Water changes are always good. Less toxins the better. Why kill off things that might be saved?

Damsels are cheap, but depending on the type, can be very aggressive, and will dominate a tank. Fine if you want one, but if you don't, don't get one.

How does algae increase DOC's? They would reduce them by feeding off them.

[Fractured]

Originally Posted by joephys

I don't like canister filters, or any other kind of mechanical filtration on a SW tank. I just see it as a nitrate factory. Clean up crew and filter feeders should take care of it.

I would very much disagree about not doing a water change for a month. Water changes are always good. Less toxins the better. Why kill off things that might be saved?

Damsels are cheap, but depending on the type, can be very aggressive, and will dominate a tank. Fine if you want one, but if you don't, don't get one.

How does algae increase DOC's? They would reduce them by feeding off them.

I should have elaborated more on the algae. DOC count will increase from the bloom once you get the parameters in balance..causing algae die out... which will increase Doc's.

Local buddy at a Tacoma Saltwater store and I have discussed it being an issue.

And waiting a month to add stock and letting the rock&sand bio environment get established and cycled plus the changes in water chemistry fluctuations to be more stable is just a cautious safety measure. I know of 3 store owners with salt water tanks say this to me at the beginning of my information gathering. I figure people who have set up many more tanks than I would know whats best so I listen to them.

The canister filters are for mechanical for me. Now going overflow into a sump wet/dry setup sure its awsome...I just didn't go the route at the start...nor plan to unless I buy a 100g tank with plumbing.

Nitrates I feel are just something you cant escape being a natural thing in a tank. Weekly water changes...good mechanical , bio from sand&live rock, and good protein skimmer is basically what a hobbyist wants to do. And a mediocre budget system.

Sump system, Refugeium , De-Nitrate thing (indoor reef site has one if you havnt seen it), and the plumbing would be awsome over what I have. Just not in my budget.

Hopefully this clears where my mind is at on the things i talked about.

PS. I only mentioned Damsel as a starter stock fish cause they are cheap, Hardy, and I normally remove them and donate it to the store as I stock what I want in the tanks.

[joephys]

I am not arguing waiting a month, not at all. I have seen some reliable sources suggesting waiting a YEAR to stock anything in a new aquarium. I just don't understand why you wouldn't want to do a water change during that month.

As far as the canister filter, I wasn't saying that you shouldn't have one. I just prefer to have no mechanical filtration because it turns into a place for nitrates to form, and it can remove potential food for filter feeders from the water. I had a 20 gallon that was very low tech, just a power head and a hang on back power filter with no media. It was just there for water movement. I never saw nitrates get above about 5ppm in that tank, and the water always looked good.

I take everything a store owner tells me with a grain of salt. Until I know them well, I assume that their first priority is to make money. I can't blame them for that, I just don't use them for my primary source of info .

[johnpeezy]

I was told by a LFS frequenter that you can use the shrimp beer method to cycle a saltwater tank as well as fresh water,

that true??

[Fractured]

Originally Posted by joephys

I am not arguing waiting a month, not at all. I have seen some reliable sources suggesting waiting a YEAR to stock anything in a new aquarium. I just don't understand why you wouldn't want to do a water change during that month.

As far as the canister filter, I wasn't saying that you shouldn't have one. I just prefer to have no mechanical filtration because it turns into a place for nitrates to form, and it can remove potential food for filter feeders from the water. I had a 20 gallon that was very low tech, just a power head and a hang on back power filter with no media. It was just there for water movement. I never saw nitrates get above about 5ppm in that tank, and the water always looked good.

I take everything a store owner tells me with a grain of salt. Until I know them well, I assume that their first priority is to make money. I can't blame them for that, I just don't use them for my primary source of info .

Oh not trying to dismiss your information. You and I are providing the readers information from our experience which is all helpfull. We have just different opinions on what we prefer for marine tanks.

20gallon is very manageable. I had a 10 gallon going for a bit with only a bio wheel hob for 10 gallons on it... the tank flourished.

I haven't seen any issues arise from my two fluval 205's at all. I prefer it to suck out as much mechanical as possible... Since I dont have a de nitrater.. I depend a lot on my refuge,skimmer, and canister to keep things in balance...

For my budget I am having a happy LPS tank ..I would prefer to remove the canisters for other reasons...I want a sump system and overflow to be honest . With reservoir so I can do less work =).

[Fractured]

Originally Posted by johnpeezy

I was told by a LFS frequenter that you can use the shrimp beer method to cycle a saltwater tank as well as fresh water,

that true??

lol I have never heard of that.. sounds interesting...

Heres a topic on Vodka =) Vodka anyone? - The Reef Tank