Marine Newbie

[Fish Floss]

Hi Everyone,
I'm new to this forum and to the saltwater arena. I had a freshwater tank for over 10 years, but was never really into it. I've wanted to switch over for many years, but everyone kept advising me against it and scaring me out of it. Well, I got tired of looking at my tank so it was time to either take it down or convert it to what I always wanted it to be.

So, the process began about a month ago. Its only a 20g tank (once I realize this is something I can do, my goal is a 70 or 90g). Anyway, I have about 20lbs of live rock, 2 chromis, turbo snails & a couple of emerald crabs. I went to my LFS on friday where they tested my water and I got the green light to purchase my first real fish . I got a sailfin blenny and acclimated him slowly. On saturday he was still hiding (I assumed he was a little stressed so let him be), but when I woke up this morning he had passed Everyone else in the tank is still doing well so I'm wondering what I did wrong. I feel very sad that he didn't make it, but want to make sure this doesn't happen again.

I look forward to learning more about this hobby as time goes on. thanks again.

[joephys]

Welcome to the boards

Chromis aren't real fish?

I don't know a whole lot about sailfin blennys specifically, but I think they are herbivores. Do you have any algae growth?

From the sounds of it, the fish was not in the best shape before you bought it, and would probably have died regardless of who bought it.

[OrionGirl]

Agreed--but let's be sure! Do you have the exact test results? Temperature, salinity?

[Emg]

Is that lfs a sw specialty store.....or is it one of the chain stores ?

It can make a difference as far as the employees knowing what they're doing when they test your water and knowing what to test for.

How slowly did you acclimate ? The last fish I purchased I tested the SG of the water that the fish came in.....it measure WAY over my hydrometer's ability to tell me what it was.....

Granted, hydrometers aren't know for their great accuracy.....I figure mine's fairly accurate because when I mix 1/2 cup of IO salt per one gallon of my water it shows up as 1.025 on my hydrometer...just what IO says it should be. The water the fish came in was well over 1.032 !

That being said, who knows what the water at the lfs was testing at and just how far off from your water it was. If the parameters were way off, you may not have acclimated slowly enough.

[joephys]

Thats another good point. Osmotic shock like that can take a couple of days before it finally does in the fish.

[Fish Floss]

Originally Posted by joephys

Chromis aren't real fish?

I don't know a whole lot about sailfin blennys specifically, but I think they are herbivores. Do you have any algae growth?

From the sounds of it, the fish was not in the best shape before you bought it, and would probably have died regardless of who bought it.

Yes, Chromis are real fish, but they were my "test" fish. Nothing I *really* wanted. With such a small tank, I need to be selective with what I want since I don't have alot of room. And the blenny was in the store for at least a week b/c he was there when I first got my water checked and he was doing fine so I'm not sure if he was sick or not.

Originally Posted by OrionGirl

Agreed--but let's be sure! Do you have the exact test results? Temperature, salinity?

Yes. On friday my results were

Temp: 76
Salinity: 1.023
pH:8.0
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0.1
Nitrate: 0.5
Phosphate: 0.8
Calcium 300

Originally Posted by Emg

Is that lfs a sw specialty store.....or is it one of the chain stores ?

It can make a difference as far as the employees knowing what they're doing when they test your water and knowing what to test for.

How slowly did you acclimate ?

Its a great little store owned by a husband/wife team. Only sw and very knowledgable. I first got my stuff from a bigger store, but they were too far, so I looked around and i found this one not too far from where I live. Very clean and very friendly and they don't try to sell me more then I need, and they also advise me on different aspects of starting a sw tank. I am really glad I found them because I know if I have a question, they won't only answer it but give me an explanation as to why it happened (I haven't been back to ask them about my blenny)

I acclimted over a period of 2 hours. Was that too fast? too slow?

thank you everyone for your responses

[Fractured]

Acclimation of 2 hours is fine. Did you dump out 75% of the water first than add a shot glass every 15 min of your tanks water to get him used to it or did you just set it in the water (the bag that is) for 2 hours? * I know a person who uses the drip method using a small hose to drip his tank water into the bag for a while first...extreme acclimation =) *

Fish have been known to die if they are fresh from shipping into the store.. they go through stress of being shipped, placed into the store tank, then into yours in 24 hours...bit much on them. Most stores locally for me wont even sell you the fish for 48 hours after delivery for this reason.

You are going backwards in the world of saltwater challenge =) ... The bigger the tank the easyer it is...due to how chemistry is with water. Environment changes can be big in small tanks.

The old spit in a cup of water vs the sea comparison...the cup of water will have a huge impact while the sea nothing. Same concept with small tanks vs large.

[Emg]

I use airline tubing when drip acclimating fish. You just tie a knot in the tube and tighten it or loosen it to regulate the drip.

I never put water from the lfs into my tanks. I net the fish out of the acclimation container to put them in the tank that way, rather than dumping them in...water and all.

[Fractured]

Originally Posted by Emg

I use airline tubing when drip acclimating fish. You just tie a knot in the tube and tighten it or loosen it to regulate the drip.

I never put water from the lfs into my tanks. I net the fish out of the acclimation container to put them in the tank that way, rather than dumping them in...water and all.

Sounds like a freak death to me =(. As perfect as we can be about acclimation and water chemistry ...sometimes the fish are more stressed than we know till its to late.

[Fish Floss]

Originally Posted by Fractured

Acclimation of 2 hours is fine. Did you dump out 75% of the water first than add a shot glass every 15 min of your tanks water to get him used to it or did you just set it in the water (the bag that is) for 2 hours? * I know a person who uses the drip method using a small hose to drip his tank water into the bag for a while first...extreme acclimation =) *

Fish have been known to die if they are fresh from shipping into the store.. they go through stress of being shipped, placed into the store tank, then into yours in 24 hours...bit much on them. Most stores locally for me wont even sell you the fish for 48 hours after delivery for this reason.

You are going backwards in the world of saltwater challenge =) ... The bigger the tank the easyer it is...due to how chemistry is with water. Environment changes can be big in small tanks.

I dumped about 1/2 the water then added about a 1/2 cup every every 30 mins for a period of 2 hours. Perhaps it was too much? The blenny wasn't new to the lfs b/c he I was eyeing him the previous week. And I know the bigger the better, but with my freshwater tank, I was just about ready to empty it out and move on, but I wanted to try my hand at sw since that's what I've always really wanted. If all works out well, I'd love to get a 70g bow front.......one step at a time

[johnpeezy]

I have always though the acclimation process for S/W fish wasn't about halving the water or adding any certain amount of water from your tank over time. But its more of raising or lowering the salinity level of the water the fish came with to match your tank over a safe period of time.

If your LFS has a (embellished) Sal level of 2.000, and your water is at 1.023
dumping out half of that 2.000 water and adding a half cup of the 1.023 water would have a much large effect on a fish then if the LFS waters salt level was at 1.025.

I'm pretty sure that you need to be concerned with the salinity level decrease/increase over a time period rather then the water introduced over time. but I honestly have no idea please correct me, back to freshwater land

[Fractured]

Originally Posted by johnpeezy

I have always though the acclimation process for S/W fish wasn't about halving the water or adding any certain amount of water from your tank over time. But its more of raising or lowering the salinity level of the water the fish came with to match your tank over a safe period of time.

If your LFS has a (embellished) Sal level of 2.000, and your water is at 1.023
dumping out half of that 2.000 water and adding a half cup of the 1.023 water would have a much large effect on a fish then if the LFS waters salt level was at 1.025.

I'm pretty sure that you need to be concerned with the salinity level decrease/increase over a time period rather then the water introduced over time. but I honestly have no idea please correct me, back to freshwater land

The salinity has not such a impact (it does but not to an extreme). Its the chemistry of each tank being so different that you have to get the new pet adjusted to.

The water he is in could have different Cal, Alk, PH levels...they may vary from tank to tank...

Its mostly due to combination of things we acclimate them to our water slowly. Its all based on chemistry of the water Salinity is only 1 part of the equation but not major at all...

EDIT: Sorry I was distracted had to read and type on the fly... The part about salinity of 2 is unheard of..i dont think anything could live in that level of salinity. Doesn't mean It cant just never heard of such levels =)

We are trying to accomplish having salinity levels close to the sea... some locals have 1.2 to 1.4 salinity depending on stores premix batch. I have not heard of levels being so drastically high ever.

[Fish Floss]

So do many of you test the water the fish came in to determine how to acclimate the fish to your tank? I never really considered doing this, but I guess it does make sense. If you do check the LFS water, what is the main item you test for? Just salinity?

[Fractured]

Originally Posted by Fish Floss

So do many of you test the water the fish came in to determine how to acclimate the fish to your tank? I never really considered doing this, but I guess it does make sense. If you do check the LFS water, what is the main item you test for? Just salinity?

I don't test the water. The how to acclimate is based on sensitivity of the species. Boomer a moderator at Reef Frontiers Chemistry section is very knowledgeable and can explain things on a scientific level ..I can not. I just read a lot of there posts and resources.

For me I just ask about the species and check about them online on hardiness.

Some things are so sensitive that a drip method is encouraged to acclimate or take chances on pet death...

For a marine hobbyist a death can cost you big bucks =(. Most stores wont refund you either...rarely do you find ones that give you credit also. Unlike Fresh Water...you normally can bring back the fish and water sample ..get a new one.

All I know is water chemistry is such a big deal with Salt over Fresh that parameters are watched like a hawk by most serious hobbyists.

One thing out of wack and have a nightmare on your hands..or worse a complete tank crash out..which is very costly.

I may test for the hell of it ...I plan on going up north of my area to Seattle and buy some more corals. Test the dudes water vs mine.

[johnpeezy]

Tacoma has the "better" reef stores unless you go way north.

[Fish Floss]

Good news! I went to my LFS today to get my water checked and picked up a starfish. While I was there I was talking to the lady about my Blenny and she was as upset and confused as I was. I've been going there ever since I've set up my tank and go regularly to get my water checked. She felt a bit guilt since everyone else in the tank is doing well and the blenny died so suddenly, so she is going to replace him for me once she get in another one! I totally wasn't expecting her to do that. Nice to know there are still nice people out there.

[Emg]

Sounds like you've got yourself a great lfs there Floss !

[wesleydnunder]

Originally Posted by Fractured

...Salinity is only 1 part of the equation but not major at all...

I may be stepping outside my realm of comfort here, and you reefers please correct me if I'm wrong, but that statement seems not completely correct to me, fractured.

Acclimating any fish is the process of getting the fish switched from the water he came from to the water he's going to live in as stresslessly as possible (is stresslessly a word, Lila?). In SW, osmosis is pulling water out of the fish through skin and gills. The amount of fluid the fish loses is, to a great extent, dependant on the salinity of the water. The higher the salinity, the faster the rate of fluid loss from the fish. SW fish offset this through the process of osmoregulation. A SW fish drinks almost constantly and urinates very little. What urinary output there is, is very concentrated in salts and minerals.

Acclimating slowly allows a fish to adapt to the new salinity (and as you stated, ph, hardness, etc.). Acclimating too quickly to a different salinity can cause osmoregulation problems and more stress, possibly death, for the new fish.

Mark

[Fractured]

I guess it could be major if your salinity is way way out of wack from the water he is in... Yes with more thought salinity is important to watch for ofcourse.

under normal tank parameters taking a fish from 1.02 in bag water to say a a reef system with 1.03 may stress him. The osmosis you speak of is nothing I even delved into reading into. I just know the lower salinity helps them get more oxygen so by placing a fish into a density higher (reef tank) may stress him being he is not receiving as much oxygen from the 1.03 water.

The really important things we acclimate for are Temp, Ph, and ofcourse Salinity. One with an established aquarium should be within 1.02-1.03..and so will most stores... reason I say its not major.. unless us the hobbyist neglect checking salinity and we have a 1.04 gravity and placing a fish straight into 1.04 without driping the water in his bag. Just went from high oxygen saturation in his gills to lower... stressful yes.

PH balance is what I really worry about..here is why.
A marine tank sits in PH levels of 8.2-8.5 (prefer no higher than 8.4).. the fish in the bag will be coming from a lower PH levels of water in the bag. The fish while in the bag releases ammonia which drops the PH in the water for him..he will slowly stress to and be acclimated to a lower PH before you introduce him to a tank with proper PH levels.

I was not trying to dismiss the importance of Salinity acclimation...just when I responded earlier I was getting the impression people were focusing to much on salinity when normally its in balance if you properly upkeep your tank.

So considering a normal hobbyist with basic parameters in chemistry met...and coming from a good fish store.

I focus on more of acclimating to the conditions of the difference of water chemistry on the levels of Ph more than anything.

I wish I had the article I read a while back about Marine Acclimation and why it was important to follow certain steps.

I recall it mentioning salinity can be a major factor with certain species..some not so big deal to go from 1.02 to 1.03. But for instance your cleaning crews are super sensitive to salinity differences... but a Damsel fish...nope.

I didn't read much about the Osmosis or even if it even is an issue. I dont see anything wrong with your post.I just dont put much emphasis on Salinity...but i dont dismiss it either.

Like I tried to say: its one factor... but there are many other things that fit into the equation for acclimating reasons.

[johnpeezy]

Originally Posted by Fractured

PH balance is what I really worry about..here is why.
A marine tank sits in PH levels of 8.2-8.5 (prefer no higher than 8.4).. the fish in the bag will be coming from a lower PH levels of water in the bag. The fish while in the bag releases ammonia which drops the PH in the water for him..he will slowly stress to and be acclimated to a lower PH before you introduce him to a tank with proper PH levels.

I always thought stagnet water pH increases over a period of time, but that is for water changes. Is it diffrent when there is a fish in the water or between FW and SW or am I just wrong?